Are Vegans Hypocrites?
I'll probably expand more on these themes as I continue blogging, but here's a quick(!) summary of some things I'd like to address. Most of the time I encounter them online, either because my friends and coworkers rock, or they're scared I'll whip out my Vegan Hammer of Justice tm.
1) Vegans are hypocrites because they hurt plants which are living things.
(I have heard this phrased as a genuine, intelligent question, so unlike some of the other items, it's not simply a knee-jerk defense for meat eating)
Yes, we kill plants. Plants cannot suffer like animals because they have no nervous system or ability to feel pain. By eating the plants directly, we kill fewer than a meat eater who kills all the plants the animal ate, plus then kills the animal on top of that. Vegans do not claim to cause zero suffering, we only try to minimize the suffering we cause. Humans cannot eat rocks or photosynthesize, so we do the best we can to harm as little as possible, given the bodily requirements we have.
2) Vegans are hypocrites because they don't respect the decision to eat meat, but they expect everyone else to respect their veganism.
I respect many people who choose to eat meat. Almost everyone I care about eats meat, and they are good, kind people. However, while I love and respect those people, I cannot respect raising animals in intensive confinement or slaughtering them in inefficient slaughterhouses. So by extension, I do not respect the choice to support the industry. I do not limit my love to only people who are "perfect" by my definition. I am far from perfect, and I want to be loved just as I am - faults and imperfections included. I can respect a person without respecting everything they do.
3) People are more important than animals, so although vegans may mean well, their priorities are out of whack. If only they focused their energy on human problems, they could do more good.
There is no reason a vegan cannot do humanitarian work. It's not an either-or situation. There is absolutely nothing about helping humans that requires you to support animal cruelty. The only possible exception I can see is if you're doing some humanitarian work in some remote area and must eat meat or you'll suffer malnutrition. So far, I have never met someone in this position, and the idea that "humans come first" is only used as an excuse to continue supporting a cruel industry.
A similar idea is that someone will go vegan once world peace, starvation and other terrible human problems are solved. This is called "keeping things in perspective." By this same logic, we should not work on adult literacy or donate to Toys for Tots or Make a Wish because they aren't as critical as starvation and war.
If we wait for all the big problems of the world to end before we start doing anything, we'll wait forever. Similarly, if we wait until after we have time to volunteer to help the homeless and give a percentage of our salary to charity before we go vegan, we're missing a great opportunity to help without costing extra money or time.
Now, if someone is doing activist work, then yes, you have to choose between using your limited time for animals or humans. Although, getting people to go vegan helps humans in many ways (health, environment, working conditions). But eating a vegan diet and purchasing vegan items in no way detracts from human causes, and indirectly helps more people than a diet that includes meat.
4) Vegans think they're perfect, and they're not because they cause death through their lives too. None of them are really vegan because everything contains animal products. Plants were fertilized with manure. Snakes and mice died when their plants were harvested.
I've never talked to any vegan who thought they were perfect. All were quite aware of the suffering they caused, and did what they could to minimize it. I think there's some kind of projection going on with people thinking that vegans are suffering some kind of monk-like deprivation, therefore we must think we're superior to the rest of humanity. This is true in some cases. Some vegans are self-righteous pains in the ass. Most are not .
Just because we can't be perfect is no excuse to do nothing.
5) Vegans are hypocrites because they would take medicine that was tested on animals if they had cancer. They'd also eat meat if there was a famine. And they'd wear fur if they were freezing.
In life-or-death situations, yes, I'll harm animals. I'll also probably harm humans. I don't know. This does not negate my efforts to end animal agriculture. In one situation, harming animals is necessary for me to live or function, the other situation is purely an issue of personal pleasure. They are not ethically equivalent.
If extreme hypothetical situations are the only ones in which it is ok to support harming animals, then that proves my point.
6) Vegans are hypocrites because they talk about compassion, but then they get all angry at meat eaters, who are nice people. That's not compassionate.
I think people are mixing up vegans and saints. The stereotype of the angry vegan exists for a reason. Seeing suffering and being with people who knowingly cause it can be painful. It can bring on lots of difficult emotions, including sorrow, frustration, and anger. Vegans are flawed and human, and their anger is just their reaction to seeing such extreme cruelty that it cries out for justice. The horror and pain can get raw, and not everyone can be calm and smiling when they feel those emotions.
The anger is a product of empathizing with the victims. It is a sign of humanity, not the opposite.
This does not mean that they should scream at people and be jerks about it though.
7) Vegans think they are better than the great religious leaders. Jesus ate fish, the Buddha, Moses, and Mohammad ate meat, etc. No religion condemns meat eating, so why make a big deal out of it?
Back when these religious leaders were walking the earth, things like beating people to a pulp and nailing them to crosses was standard. (Yes, I am aware the Buddha and Moses lived before Jesus, and I have no idea about what horrors their world held.) The world was incredibly violent. Just getting people to treat each other with compassion was a huge deal. Nowadays, nailing people to things is horrific. Our ability to feel compassion has extended to people of other races and cultures, to women, the disabled, prostitutes, the mentally ill - to groups that were condemned or ignored in the past. Our compassion can extend to animals without contradicting religious teachings - in fact, compassion for the weak and vulnerable is the natural extension of the teachings of all great religious and moral leaders.
A second factor is factory farming. In ancient times, the cruelty involved in modern animal agriculture did not exist. Apply this simple test - imagine your prophet/deity/leader. What would he say if you stood side by side with him while cows were cut up alive or male chicks were ground up, suffocated or crushed to death? What would he choose to do - support it, or boycott it?
7.1) God gave us the animals to use as we saw fit. If I don't eat meat, it's rejecting God's gift.
My quick answer - is dominion about being a caretaker and showing mercy? Or is it about tormenting stupid creatures because it gives us physical pleasure to eat them?
I don't think religion/spirituality is supposed to be about finding loopholes to allow us to cause suffering.
If animals are a "gift," so are children and sunsets and golden retrievers. You don't have to destroy a gift to enjoy it. Go to a farm sanctuary and rub a piglet belly. Now there's a gift.
For more info: Honoring God's Creation from Christian Vegetarian Society
Jewish Veg
Islam and Vegetarianism
Buddhism Resources on Vegetarianism and Animal Welfare*
Hinduism and Vegetarianism*
*Hindus and Buddhists have such a long tradition of vegetarianism within their religions, that I recommend googling on your own.
7.2) If I am thankful to the animal, and respect its spirit, then it's ok to eat it. (Variation: If I say a prayer of thanks, it's ok)
If I hang a dog by its hind legs, and then start cutting it up alive, is that ok if I respect the dog's spirit? Is it ok to raise a cat in a tiny box where it can never turn around if I say a prayer of thanks?
Is it ok if I pay someone else to do these things if I don't see it happen?
What if it's a really dumb dog or cat? How about a goat?
To say you "respect the animal's spirit" is invoking a particularly odious kind of self-serving pseudo-Native American spirituality. The Native Americans had to kill to eat. Plus, they did it themselves. We pay people to do things we'd never do ourselves, and then try to justify it by saying we respect the animal.
If you respect the animal so much, how about not paying people to torture the poor thing?
As for saying a prayer of thanks, you can be thankful for the thousands of marvelous plant-based foods that we have. I'm especially thankful that I can access hundreds of types of food at my local market and get tons of vegan recipes online. Ancient people had no such luxury.
8) Vegans talk about compassion, but what about compassion for animal farmers? Driving them out of business is terrible. They have families to feed.
Most vegans don't hate slaughterhouse workers or those who depend on animal agriculture to make a living. I feel pity for the people who are forced to do those things. In their eyes, they have to do it or they can't feed their families. That's not a situation I'd wish on anyone.
But that doesn't mean I won't try to end animal agriculture. People are continually being driven out of business by the march of progress. Tobacco and cotton farmers went out of business when slavery ended. The automobile and computers drove others out of business. Women entering the workforce caused other upheavals.
It's not an easy situation, but I cannot justify supporting cruelty on the basis of keeping things the way they are.
9) Vegans ignore science and history. We have pointy canine teeth. Our ancestors ate meat.
Yes, we have four little pointy teeth (they're called cuspids - the term "canine" is just because they look like dog teeth). When you eat your steak, what do you do - tear it with your little canines and bolt it, or grind it up on your molars? In primates, the cuspids are often used for display or defense. Take a look at our friend the gorilla. Those cuspids are huge, but gorillas are herbivores. Chimpanzees, our closest relative, are omnivores, but only a tiny part of their diet is meat. (Jane Goodall, who knows more about chimpanzees than anyone, is a vegetarian.)
There's some debate about whether humans are omnivores or herbivores (scroll to the bottom for a summary). Either way, we certainly are capable of digesting meat. But we don't have to eat it to be healthy. We can be herbivores by choice, so meat eating is a choice, not a necessity.
from American Dietetic Association:
Well-planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth.
And it's crap to say we're honoring our ancestors by eating meat. It's not like the cows will rise up and take revenge for millennia of bovicide if we don't keep them in line by eating them. Our ancestors ate meat because they had to. If they hadn't, our species would have died out long ago. Some people in the modern world have no choice because they are living in famine conditions. The rest of us do have a choice.
To turn it into some issue of gratitude to our ancestors is just another way of trying to justify hurting things for pleasure.
10) If everyone went vegan today, we'd have animal overpopulation problems. We'd be overrun with farm animals.
It's a simple fact that the world won't go vegan overnight. The change will be gradual. My little nuclear family spares approximately 400 animals per year. Is there a field somewhere with 800 extra animals from the 2 years we've been vegan? Nope.
It's all about supply and demand. Demand will decrease gradually.
And if we want to visit Bizarro Hypothetical Land - if everyone suddenly became vegan, we could convert all those government grazing subsidies into animal sanctuary funds.
11) If vegans are so obsessed with not causing harm, why don't they just kill themselves so they don't harm anything any more?
We won't have to kill ourselves. Your stupid Avian Flu will kill plenty of us because you won't stop raising birds in overcrowded conditions.
Just kidding.
Wait. No, I'm not.
1) Vegans are hypocrites because they hurt plants which are living things.
(I have heard this phrased as a genuine, intelligent question, so unlike some of the other items, it's not simply a knee-jerk defense for meat eating)
Yes, we kill plants. Plants cannot suffer like animals because they have no nervous system or ability to feel pain. By eating the plants directly, we kill fewer than a meat eater who kills all the plants the animal ate, plus then kills the animal on top of that. Vegans do not claim to cause zero suffering, we only try to minimize the suffering we cause. Humans cannot eat rocks or photosynthesize, so we do the best we can to harm as little as possible, given the bodily requirements we have.
2) Vegans are hypocrites because they don't respect the decision to eat meat, but they expect everyone else to respect their veganism.
I respect many people who choose to eat meat. Almost everyone I care about eats meat, and they are good, kind people. However, while I love and respect those people, I cannot respect raising animals in intensive confinement or slaughtering them in inefficient slaughterhouses. So by extension, I do not respect the choice to support the industry. I do not limit my love to only people who are "perfect" by my definition. I am far from perfect, and I want to be loved just as I am - faults and imperfections included. I can respect a person without respecting everything they do.
3) People are more important than animals, so although vegans may mean well, their priorities are out of whack. If only they focused their energy on human problems, they could do more good.
There is no reason a vegan cannot do humanitarian work. It's not an either-or situation. There is absolutely nothing about helping humans that requires you to support animal cruelty. The only possible exception I can see is if you're doing some humanitarian work in some remote area and must eat meat or you'll suffer malnutrition. So far, I have never met someone in this position, and the idea that "humans come first" is only used as an excuse to continue supporting a cruel industry.
A similar idea is that someone will go vegan once world peace, starvation and other terrible human problems are solved. This is called "keeping things in perspective." By this same logic, we should not work on adult literacy or donate to Toys for Tots or Make a Wish because they aren't as critical as starvation and war.
If we wait for all the big problems of the world to end before we start doing anything, we'll wait forever. Similarly, if we wait until after we have time to volunteer to help the homeless and give a percentage of our salary to charity before we go vegan, we're missing a great opportunity to help without costing extra money or time.
Now, if someone is doing activist work, then yes, you have to choose between using your limited time for animals or humans. Although, getting people to go vegan helps humans in many ways (health, environment, working conditions). But eating a vegan diet and purchasing vegan items in no way detracts from human causes, and indirectly helps more people than a diet that includes meat.
4) Vegans think they're perfect, and they're not because they cause death through their lives too. None of them are really vegan because everything contains animal products. Plants were fertilized with manure. Snakes and mice died when their plants were harvested.
I've never talked to any vegan who thought they were perfect. All were quite aware of the suffering they caused, and did what they could to minimize it. I think there's some kind of projection going on with people thinking that vegans are suffering some kind of monk-like deprivation, therefore we must think we're superior to the rest of humanity. This is true in some cases. Some vegans are self-righteous pains in the ass. Most are not .
Just because we can't be perfect is no excuse to do nothing.
5) Vegans are hypocrites because they would take medicine that was tested on animals if they had cancer. They'd also eat meat if there was a famine. And they'd wear fur if they were freezing.
In life-or-death situations, yes, I'll harm animals. I'll also probably harm humans. I don't know. This does not negate my efforts to end animal agriculture. In one situation, harming animals is necessary for me to live or function, the other situation is purely an issue of personal pleasure. They are not ethically equivalent.
If extreme hypothetical situations are the only ones in which it is ok to support harming animals, then that proves my point.
6) Vegans are hypocrites because they talk about compassion, but then they get all angry at meat eaters, who are nice people. That's not compassionate.
I think people are mixing up vegans and saints. The stereotype of the angry vegan exists for a reason. Seeing suffering and being with people who knowingly cause it can be painful. It can bring on lots of difficult emotions, including sorrow, frustration, and anger. Vegans are flawed and human, and their anger is just their reaction to seeing such extreme cruelty that it cries out for justice. The horror and pain can get raw, and not everyone can be calm and smiling when they feel those emotions.
The anger is a product of empathizing with the victims. It is a sign of humanity, not the opposite.
This does not mean that they should scream at people and be jerks about it though.
7) Vegans think they are better than the great religious leaders. Jesus ate fish, the Buddha, Moses, and Mohammad ate meat, etc. No religion condemns meat eating, so why make a big deal out of it?
Back when these religious leaders were walking the earth, things like beating people to a pulp and nailing them to crosses was standard. (Yes, I am aware the Buddha and Moses lived before Jesus, and I have no idea about what horrors their world held.) The world was incredibly violent. Just getting people to treat each other with compassion was a huge deal. Nowadays, nailing people to things is horrific. Our ability to feel compassion has extended to people of other races and cultures, to women, the disabled, prostitutes, the mentally ill - to groups that were condemned or ignored in the past. Our compassion can extend to animals without contradicting religious teachings - in fact, compassion for the weak and vulnerable is the natural extension of the teachings of all great religious and moral leaders.
A second factor is factory farming. In ancient times, the cruelty involved in modern animal agriculture did not exist. Apply this simple test - imagine your prophet/deity/leader. What would he say if you stood side by side with him while cows were cut up alive or male chicks were ground up, suffocated or crushed to death? What would he choose to do - support it, or boycott it?
7.1) God gave us the animals to use as we saw fit. If I don't eat meat, it's rejecting God's gift.
My quick answer - is dominion about being a caretaker and showing mercy? Or is it about tormenting stupid creatures because it gives us physical pleasure to eat them?
I don't think religion/spirituality is supposed to be about finding loopholes to allow us to cause suffering.
If animals are a "gift," so are children and sunsets and golden retrievers. You don't have to destroy a gift to enjoy it. Go to a farm sanctuary and rub a piglet belly. Now there's a gift.
For more info: Honoring God's Creation from Christian Vegetarian Society
Jewish Veg
Islam and Vegetarianism
Buddhism Resources on Vegetarianism and Animal Welfare*
Hinduism and Vegetarianism*
*Hindus and Buddhists have such a long tradition of vegetarianism within their religions, that I recommend googling on your own.
7.2) If I am thankful to the animal, and respect its spirit, then it's ok to eat it. (Variation: If I say a prayer of thanks, it's ok)
If I hang a dog by its hind legs, and then start cutting it up alive, is that ok if I respect the dog's spirit? Is it ok to raise a cat in a tiny box where it can never turn around if I say a prayer of thanks?
Is it ok if I pay someone else to do these things if I don't see it happen?
What if it's a really dumb dog or cat? How about a goat?
To say you "respect the animal's spirit" is invoking a particularly odious kind of self-serving pseudo-Native American spirituality. The Native Americans had to kill to eat. Plus, they did it themselves. We pay people to do things we'd never do ourselves, and then try to justify it by saying we respect the animal.
If you respect the animal so much, how about not paying people to torture the poor thing?
As for saying a prayer of thanks, you can be thankful for the thousands of marvelous plant-based foods that we have. I'm especially thankful that I can access hundreds of types of food at my local market and get tons of vegan recipes online. Ancient people had no such luxury.
8) Vegans talk about compassion, but what about compassion for animal farmers? Driving them out of business is terrible. They have families to feed.
Most vegans don't hate slaughterhouse workers or those who depend on animal agriculture to make a living. I feel pity for the people who are forced to do those things. In their eyes, they have to do it or they can't feed their families. That's not a situation I'd wish on anyone.
But that doesn't mean I won't try to end animal agriculture. People are continually being driven out of business by the march of progress. Tobacco and cotton farmers went out of business when slavery ended. The automobile and computers drove others out of business. Women entering the workforce caused other upheavals.
It's not an easy situation, but I cannot justify supporting cruelty on the basis of keeping things the way they are.
9) Vegans ignore science and history. We have pointy canine teeth. Our ancestors ate meat.
Yes, we have four little pointy teeth (they're called cuspids - the term "canine" is just because they look like dog teeth). When you eat your steak, what do you do - tear it with your little canines and bolt it, or grind it up on your molars? In primates, the cuspids are often used for display or defense. Take a look at our friend the gorilla. Those cuspids are huge, but gorillas are herbivores. Chimpanzees, our closest relative, are omnivores, but only a tiny part of their diet is meat. (Jane Goodall, who knows more about chimpanzees than anyone, is a vegetarian.)
There's some debate about whether humans are omnivores or herbivores (scroll to the bottom for a summary). Either way, we certainly are capable of digesting meat. But we don't have to eat it to be healthy. We can be herbivores by choice, so meat eating is a choice, not a necessity.
from American Dietetic Association:
Well-planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth.
And it's crap to say we're honoring our ancestors by eating meat. It's not like the cows will rise up and take revenge for millennia of bovicide if we don't keep them in line by eating them. Our ancestors ate meat because they had to. If they hadn't, our species would have died out long ago. Some people in the modern world have no choice because they are living in famine conditions. The rest of us do have a choice.
To turn it into some issue of gratitude to our ancestors is just another way of trying to justify hurting things for pleasure.
10) If everyone went vegan today, we'd have animal overpopulation problems. We'd be overrun with farm animals.
It's a simple fact that the world won't go vegan overnight. The change will be gradual. My little nuclear family spares approximately 400 animals per year. Is there a field somewhere with 800 extra animals from the 2 years we've been vegan? Nope.
It's all about supply and demand. Demand will decrease gradually.
And if we want to visit Bizarro Hypothetical Land - if everyone suddenly became vegan, we could convert all those government grazing subsidies into animal sanctuary funds.
11) If vegans are so obsessed with not causing harm, why don't they just kill themselves so they don't harm anything any more?
We won't have to kill ourselves. Your stupid Avian Flu will kill plenty of us because you won't stop raising birds in overcrowded conditions.
Just kidding.
Wait. No, I'm not.
posted by Veggie Geek | 1:20 PM
46 Comments:
Great post, Veggie Geek :)
Vegans talk about compassion, but what about compassion for animal farmers?
This is a crazy comment; working to raise and slaughter animals has to be one of the worst jobs a human being could have. Not only for their spirit, because they are surviving through the misery and torment of other living creatures, but working in slaughterhouses is incredibly dangerous.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Health/MostDangerousJob_FFN.html
There is a ton of information about this issue on the 'net. There is no way any sane human being could justify keeping a slaughterhouse open to benefit the humans who work there. Close the slaughterhouses and open some big organic farms to employ those workers instead, how about that?
It drives me crazy when someone who eats meat says someone who does not, is a hypocrite. Doing *something* is always better than doing *nothing!*
Great post!
What a great post. I don't know how many times I've been asked these kind of questions, and I've only been a vegan for 6 months.
Hi. I've been lurking you for awhile but I don't think I've commented yet. Wanted to let you know the wonderful vegan md, Dr. Michael Greger who currently works for HSUS (veganmd.com) will have a book up on his site soon about bird flu. I helped my boyfriend edit a bit of it, but haven't read it yet. You can bet I'll be telling all the vegans I know to read it when it comes out.
Also, aren't chimps and gorillas technically frugivores? I don't know...
Anyway, nice to meet ya! I'll let you know about the book.
Desiree
http://obstiknitvegan.blogspot.com
I just stumbled on your blog for the first time today. What a great post!
mindy, liberty, grace, desiree, and big apple knitting - Glad you liked it. It's been brewing for awhile.
desiree - Definitely let me know about the book. I'm kind of scared to read it though.
Welcome lurkers!
This is a great blog.
I've linked it off of mine.
Thanks for all the great links and info you have!
This was a fantastic post. I registered for blogger just so I could leave you this comment. Excellent.
-Danielle
I'm flattered joeparadox. Thanks.
"Our ancestors ate meat because they had to."
Actually, very few people ate meat until refrigeration was introduced and those who did; generally ate little.
"Either way, we certainly are capable of digesting meat."
This is debatable when one considers that meat often ends up rotting in our colon and animal proteins are not completely digestible and what is digested causes acidification that results in calcium loss...
"When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores."
William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology
This is Such a great collection of information. I could not have said it any other way. The first time I heard these same arguments you have discussed, I was shocked. Then I kept seeing more and more meat eaters, and specifically the Pro Canadian Sealers who I argue with daily on facebook, say the exact same thing over and over.
Oh wait, there is one even better one I have had: Vegetarians are causing cruelty to people. We have created a market for Soy. Now, Greedy businessmen are turning land into Soy farms, without giving the people there a choice. And it is all our fault, because we have created a need for Soy.
You have definitely found the most Stupid excuses and answered in the most logical, polite way possible.
Thank you.
Great post Veggie Geek, it's so well written. I'll definitely be spreading the word about your blog.
I just find it incredible that some meat-eaters automatically go on the defensive when they find out you're vegetarian, as if you're about to attack (with our claws and canines at the ready!).
At a wedding reception a few months ago, I was peering around at the catering staff to see if there were any veggie hors d'ouvres and the husband of a friend, who I just just been introduced to, asked me what I was doing. I told him and he sarcastically said "It must be so hard to live life as a martyr" - that's a lovely "nice to meet you", isn't it!
i thought your answers were absolutely amazing, very intelligent.
stupid impolite questions..
thank you for this :]
I must say you've intrigued me but, you didn't address the fact that humans today would never have existed if our ancestors hadn't consumed meat to evolve their brains, not to mention the scientific evidence that states, that over time an entirely vegetarian and/or vegan diet could star a devolution process. Of course I respect and understand your side of the argument.
Haha wow.
Just before I came on your site I wrote on facebook that vegans are living a lie. So I google searched that statement to look for evidence to support it. Now I kind of feel like an idiot cause all the arguments I had made in the past against vegans/vegeterians are the same ones you talked about on your blog.
I probably won't stop eating meat, atleast not anytime soon, but I'm definitely gonna be more open-minded to veganism. So.. thank you Veggie Geek, and good luck.
Excellent post; I've added you to follow.
Have you read Milton R. Mills' essay "The Comparative Anatomy of Eating"? It is an in-depth examination of the anatomies of carnivores, herbivores, omnivores, and humans--the result, overwhelmingly, is that humans are herbivores, and are not even close to omnivores. It's fascinating, and provides you with fuel for some excellent comebacks to the "humans have canines!" idiocy or the "we are meant to eat meat!" garbage. Check it out:
http://www.vegsource.com/veg_faq/comparative.htm
Your explaination that plants can't feel pain is a poor one. How do you KNOW they can't feel pain? It was assumed until a few years ago that creatures like lobsters and crabs couldn't feel pain, but now we know they can. Scientists have already proven that plants respond to stimuli, like turning their leaves toward the sun, or curling their leaves when touched or bruised, not to mention venus flytraps being able to sense when a bug lands on it. And don't say it's because they have sensory organs, because that's what skin is, just a large sensory organ. Someone once said that even if an animal doesn't suffer it's still wrong to kill them because they are living things.Well, what about plants? By that same reasoning,just because a plant can't feel pain, it still wrong to kill it because it's a living thing.And also don't say, well we only take part of the plant to eat, we don't kill the whole plant. Okay then, I guess it's perfectly alright to cut a leg off a cow and eat it, as long as we don't kill the whole animal. And getting things like milk and eggs from an animal don't physically hurt the animal, but vegans don't believe in consuming them either. And don't even go on about how it's because animals are raised in cruel environments, because you can hunt or fish for animals in the wild that are not subjected to the same conditions, yet vegans don't do that either. A vegan could raise a cow and chickens even if just for eggs and milk and ensure that the animals are treated well,since they would be their own animals, so why don't they do it?Simply because they are hypocrites, no matter which way you look at it, and the only people who have a right to complain about animals being used in science are those who volunteer to have drugs and such tested on them. If you complain about animal experiments, but don't volunteer to let them use you instead in the experiments,then you are a hypocrite.
Shannon,
I would say your a hypocrite. You claim to understand the nature of plants and feelings of sentient beings, but have no regard for the animals that cry out in pain and shed tears of misery. How can one possibly claim to have feelings for plants and be cruel and unkind to the rest of nature and it's animals. That is a really pathetic excuse for an argument. You really are kind and compassionate towards all creatures or you are not. Your argument sounds a desperate plea of a guilt ridden conscience.
Humans are herbivores. That means, they have no business interfering in the natural experiences of other animals especially in order to make those animals into meals.
That is the first point. The second one is, yes, plants and trees do have feelings. So what do you suppose a tree feels when you pick it's ripened fruit, gobble down what you find edible and then discard its seeds far and wide?
Something tells me, it feels great... great to have supplied you with something you will be gulping with pleasure over, and great that you will throw its seeds far from the tree possibly to germinate... and bring forth a continuation of its life.
Like every other part of nature, humans are ecologically defined. And we are defined as herbivores, principally the frugivore type.
If you want proof of this, go to http://allinharmony.org.
Life is a system built upon the activities of its many partners... of which we are one. What we eat, determines in very immediate and real ways how vital the world around is and can continue to be.
I didn't say I have feelings for plants , I'm pointing out the fallacy of Veggie Geek's arguement.It seems like you completely missed the sarcastic undertone.You are right, you can't have compassion for only some living things, you have to have compassion for all, which is where lies the fatal flaw of the arguement, in that vegans have compassion for animals and not for plants.Doesn't that make you the hypocrite?
Cheryl, I thought I made it clear that you don't hurt cows and chickens to take eggs and milk, yet you STILL bring up the fact that you don't hurt the tree to eat its fruit.It's like you didn't even read my post, or are too dull for that level of thinking.All living creatures(note I said creatures, not plants) with the exception of bees, butterflies, and hummingbirds, must kill something in order to live.And I discovered another flaw in the arguement.If humans were meant to eat a pure vegetable diet, then why don't we have stomachs like herbavores? Vegetable matter is the toughest to digest, that's why cows have more than one chamber to their stomachs.If our ancestors lived off a pure vegetable diet, then how, pray tell, did they survive the cold winter months when nothing was growing? Stored vegetables would not have provided enough fat to sustain people through a long winter.And Veggie Geek failed to point out that people hunted anyway, because they had to have furs in order to stay warm, growing cotton and weaving are fairly modern things.And how do you expect people to survive in the desert where very few plants grow? They pretty much HAVE to have meat.And primates are OMNIVORES, even if it's only termites, they are still creatures and not plants.And baboons do kill and eat animals.Oragutans and chimps eat meat in the wild and they are our closest relatives!The closest thing you can get to vegetarian in the primate world are gorillas and even they eat termites and some small animals, and if they were not meant to eat meat or bugs, then they wouldn't even get the urge to.You don't see a cow or horse get the urge to eat meat do you?
"Cheryl, I thought I made it clear that you don't hurt cows and chickens to take eggs and milk, yet you STILL bring up the fact that you don't hurt the tree to eat its fruit.It's like you didn't even read my post, or are too dull for that level of thinking."
Have you ever been to a dairy? Or given birth to a child? Where do you suppose, and how do you suppose milk is produced?
No creature produces milk naturally for the consumption of another species. Cruelty is very much involved in producing cows milk, or goat milk for humans. That cruelty involves denying milk to the natural recipient and... forcing a condition whereby the animal produces much more milk than it would naturally produce...
Such things can also be done to humans... the more you pump, the more milk is produced... supply, in this case, follows demand... but try it on yourself... and then tell me how there is no cruelty involved!
Cheryl, once again you did not read my post thoroughly, I said that vegans could raise cows and chickens themselves, that way you know the animals are not harmed.And not all plants want people taking their fruits either.What about blackberry bushes?Those thorns seem like a very clear warning to stay away.If they wanted animals to take the berries, they would have made it easier to do so.And how do know fruit trees wanted HUMANS to take their fruit?When a bird eats the fruit, yes the seeds do get scattered, but not nessesarily so with humans,and yes I've seen what goes on in a dairy or egg farm, but we raise our own animals and they are treated very well. Even when we do kill one for food, we do it as quickly and painlessly as possible.And I honestly don't see why you'd feel sorry for a pig, those things will literally eat you alive if given the chance.And not just domestic hogs, wild hogs are even more likely to attack and eat you.
"Cheryl, once again you did not read my post thoroughly, I said that vegans could raise cows and chickens themselves, that way you know the animals are not harmed."
I think you misunderstand one important idea inherent in veganism; non-interference in the nature-determined (ecologically driven) experiences of other creatures.
For this reason, removing animals from natural lifestyles, families, communities and the environments that make those possible is considered cruel... especially if it is ultimately done to contribute to their murder for the sake of human consumption.
"When a bird eats the fruit, yes the seeds do get scattered, but not nessesarily so with humans,.."
Seriously?
How many peach seeds have birds you know scattered lately?
ALL creatures when functioning in their ecological mode (including eating according to their nature-determined dietary requirements) contribute to an ongoing liveliness of the biosphere.
Humans actually naturally spread certain fruit seeds better than birds. But, squirrels are also incredibly important... the system is complex, intricate and works amazingly well when destructive and unnatural cultural scripts are not being implemented.
"Even when we do kill one for food, we do it as quickly and painlessly as possible.And I honestly don't see why you'd feel sorry for a pig, those things will literally eat you alive if given the chance.And not just domestic hogs, wild hogs are even more likely to attack and eat you."
How bout those screams from pigs... that sound exactly like a young child in terror for its life?
Why don't they act like they are undergoing a kind act from merciful humans? Maybe they are just too dumb to figure out how compassionate you are.
And as I stated, it's just as much murder to plants as it is to animals.Plants are not exactly treated well either considering the pesticides and the acidic fertilizer, it's not different than chemically treating animals to remove fleas and parasites and force feeding them grain to make them fatter.
"And as I stated, it's just as much murder to plants as it is to animals.Plants are not exactly treated well either considering the pesticides and the acidic fertilizer, it's not different than chemically treating animals to remove fleas and parasites and force feeding them grain to make them fatter."
I think we have a different definition of murder. I define murder as the unlawful killing of another being.
But, unlawful to me means prohibited by our ecological design. If I shoot a deer, I believe that should be called a murder. On the other hand, if a lion kills a deer, I believe that to be a natural act allowed, even prescribed by natural law... and this respect for natural law is vital to the continuation of life.
But, my definition means that I do entirely agree with you, dousing plants with chemicals to reduce insect populations or inhibit the growth of certain plants is unspeakably stupid... in your view, murderous... and that is fine for it is murderous... anyone who has seen the movie, "The World According to Monsanto" would agree with that assessment.
But, vegans actually contribute far less to the 'murders' of plants than do meat-eaters. Why? because most corn, soy, and other crops are actually grown for animal feed. If we were not embarking upon these unnatural feeding practices, it is entirely likely that the tradition of mono-cropping, and chemically driving plant selection and growth may never have occurred.
Vegans do not actually need to 'kill' to survive. We don't need to kill animals or plants. We are principally frugivores like all the other apes.
Worth a read:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17111888/Science-Verifies-That-Humans-Are-Frugivores
There are a few problems with those posts 1:No scientist can possibly know what went on in the past unless they have built a time machine and went back in time to observe for themselves.I bet I could find an article that "proves" that humans were meant to be omnivores.It means absolutely nothing.Most of the people who try to prove that humans are planteaters look only at the evidence supporting their ideals while totally ignoring any evidence that goes against their ideals.It's called "selective research".
2:Whether humans lived solely on fruit in the past or not, they can't do it now, even vegans have to eat more than fruit to have a balanced diet.Fruit provides vitamins, but relatively few minerals and very little fat.
Something else I noticed is that there is a difference between being vegetarian and vegan.Vegetarians look healthy while vegans tend to look anorexic.I think some animals products are essential to a persons diet, just because someone goes vegan, how do they know what the long term health risks are?And another observation.Vegans only speak out in defence of animals such as cows and such, but never consider the fact that insects are classified as animals too, yet a vegan seems to have no problem smashing a cockroach.At least when animals are killed for food,they are being put to use rather than being killed simply because people hate them.I bet you spray cockroaches and lay out mousetraps without a second thought.Why is that right but eating animals is wrong?And it's not just the "humans were meant to be vegetarians" issue, you say you don't eat animals because it constitutes murder.Well, murder has two definitions, it can mean the willful, unlawful killing of a human being by another, or ending the life of ANY living thing, plants included.And something else I've noticed is that you only pick out certain parts of my posts to argue with while not bothering to reference the rest, which must mean at least SOME of what I said has started to sink in, or you can't find a logical arguement to counter with.
"Fruit provides vitamins, but relatively few minerals and very little fat."
How much fat do you suppose is in an avocado? How much in nuts?
And, there are vitamins in fruits but not minerals??? That is news to me.
There's obviously not enough minerals to sustain you, else why don't vegans live off nothing but fruit? And your "evidence" said people lived off fruits, not nuts.I always assumed there was a distinction between the two.And at any rate, if humans evolved to need more than fruit in their diet, who's to say they didn't evolve to need meat in their diets?
"Vegetarians look healthy while vegans tend to look anorexic.I think some animals products are essential to a persons diet, just because someone goes vegan, how do they know what the long term health risks are?"
Sounds like you are shooting in the dark.
Maybe it is you that is not bothering to read the answers being offered to your comments.
The long term health of a vegan is statistically more probable than that of a vegetarian or a meat eater... and that assertion is based on numbers of studies as well as a sound understanding of anatomy and physiology.
But HOW can you know that?Vegetarians have been studied for a lot longer than vegans while the vegan lifestyle is relatively recent.They haven't studied it long enough to know if it is healthier for you. But I do know this, Japanese were traditinally vegetarians, eating only vegetables and seafood, and they have the longest average lifespan in the world.If you want to live a vegan diet, that's totally your choice, but you will never convince most people to stop eating meat, so there is no sense in trying to convert them.
"And your "evidence" said people lived off fruits, not nuts.I always assumed there was a distinction between the two.And at any rate, if humans evolved to need more than fruit in their diet, who's to say they didn't evolve to need meat in their diets?"
What is being shared is the fact that humans ate what today would be called a vegan diet for millions of years; much longer than humans have been engaged in eating meat, or drinking milk. And certainly long before the term vegan was suggested as a way to distinguish between humans who chose to exclusively eat plants and those who simply excluded meat from their diets.
"but you will never convince most people to stop eating meat, so there is no sense in trying to convert them."
I believe if something is worth doing, even vital, that it should be done.
That is the way I approach the task of awakening others to the vital role our diets play in our individual health and that of every other living thing...
It is just common sense to share an understanding that improves everyone's life experience.
And, I believe that once people really do have a better understanding of the role diet plays in their own health and that of the planet, more rational behaviors will follow.
"The human digestive system has been adapted to a diet of fruits and vegetables for more than 60 million years of development. A few thousand years of aberrant eating will not change our requirements for optimum health."
Quote above from: http://www.scribd.com/doc/17111888/Science-Verifies-That-Humans-Are-Frugivores
Shannon,
Please read the article posted at the link above. I think it will satisfactorily answer many of the concerns that you have raised.
Kindest regards,
Cheryl
You can't even prove that humans have lived on a vegetable diet.As I said, I could find plenty of evidence that people were meant to be omnivores.Regardless of what you think,people have pretty much always hunted, otherwise how did they survive cold weather?Dried meat keeps longer than vegetables and people had to have furs to keep warm.Even animal fat was used to provide light.I'm pretty certain they would not have let the meat go to waste.Vegetables do not provide all the fats needed to sustain someone through a whole winter.Yes, avacados have fat, but avacados are originally TROPICAL fruits which means they did NOT grow in cold places.And it is hard to gather enough nuts to last through the winter and what if there was a bad harvest?They were pretty much screwed.And beans may not have grown in that particular region.But I will make a consession.If a whole generation of vegans stick to their diet for many years and live longer than other groups and don't die of malnutrition, THEN I'd be willing to believe that people don't need animal products to survive.
"You can't even prove that humans have lived on a vegetable diet."
Shannon,
The proof has already been given to you. Please read and consider it. I can't do anything more to help you.
Regards,
Cheryl
We are state certified tree nursery specializing in native plants and trees, shrubs, fern, and perennials as well as pond plants and wetland mitigation species.
I have read it, but it's no proof, it says that even now humans are still fruit eaters and don't need other plants to survive.Well why don't you prove it and live on nothing but fruit for a while and see how correct this scientist is.Not to mention he says chimps and other primates are frugivores when it has already been proven that they are not, they eat insects, plants and small animals.Besides, did you even look at the date? 1979, wow they must have had ALL the latest scientific equipment then, I guess their technology puts things like IPhones and the Internet to shame.Sorry, but I'm not going to take a report written THIRTY years ago very seriously, you better find some "evidence" that's more up to date if you want to convince someone you are right.More than likely someone has already challenged and disproven this so called evidence.
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet2.html#0 http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet2.html#2 http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet2.html#5
These are a bit more up to date
Shannon,
Animals are believe it or not, intelligent. The pigs are likely quite aware of the purpose of their lives in this particular case and is likely the reason they are unfriendly. I wouldn't be so happy if somebody was raising me for food, keeping me confined and probably thinking "yum" you are going to be very tasty in a few more months.
Pigs, in their natural environments are kind and gentle. Boars, of course are another story entirely.
I think the essence of Veganism is trying to live a life of compassion for all creatures.
Trying to say that chimps eat insects and theirfore are not frugivores is senseless. Their staple diet is fruit. I think that at least is obvious.
A Vegan's main diet is anything that reduces the suffering on the planet to other sentient beings. What in the world is their to argue about that?
Watch Earthlings. If you have a heart you will cry.
If you don't have one you will simply blunder on in the safety and security of your patriarchal believes that "man" kind rules our world and nothing and nobody else matters.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142#
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet2.html#0 http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet2.html#2 http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet2.html#5
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#11
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#1
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#4
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#10
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#9
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#8
Any questions? I have a WHOLE lot more to post as well.You read one little outdated article and you think you have all the proof in the world.
I get irritated hearing vegans preach that they live a completely pro animal (friendly/non-harming) lifestyle until they need a flu shot or have an illness- then they have no qualms as to which or how many animals died to help them live. Or the cars they drive, planes they use to travel, plastic toys they by their children, teflon pans they use, insolation in their homes- plastic used for cable and phone lines. Many animals are affected with the manufacturing of these items-oil spills animal testing on products used in our homes or to build them etc. You won't by a leather couch but fabric ones are full of chemicals (and treated) that have been tested on animals to make sure little sally does not get sick. Being a vegan has become such a trend!!. It would be a full time job to live a genuine pro animal lifestyle. I have been a vegetarian for 16 years- all I do is try and make a mark in this world. I love animals and would love a world with only vegetarians!- I even started a business making clean, natural and/or biodegradable beauty products- no animal testing!!. I try and do my part- but I am no hypocrite! Take care and all the best to all!! L.
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